Dandy Mountfarto
New Member
Three players who've played twice as much football
Last edited by a moderator:
Three players who've played twice as much football
morty
Moderator
Staff member
It has been a long time since he has been good / consistent enough to fall into the category "Must start every single game".
The managers have seen this, why can't the fans?
Dandy Mountfarto
New Member
How many players do we have who you can say that about though? How many of our players consistantly play to their best?
Also the only manager that didn't consistantly use him when he was fit was Hughton and he hates everyone who can pass a football.
Also the only manager that didn't consistantly use him when he was fit was Hughton and he hates everyone who can pass a football.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
But the point I made earlier is that Wes doesn't have average games, he is either inspiring, or utterly anonymous.
Did Neil Adams pick him every game?
Beauseant
Well-Known Member
I think comparing him to Coutinho and Ozil shows quite how starstruck you are. Are you really suggesting that Wes is one of the best playmakers in English, nay European football?
The Hughton comment is equally ridiculous. He was frequently benched by both Lambert (once we were in the Prem) and Adams. Look at the stats, they're there for all to see. I'm all for a good debate, but don't make things up to try to bolster your case, it renders the process pointless.
The Hughton comment is equally ridiculous. He was frequently benched by both Lambert (once we were in the Prem) and Adams. Look at the stats, they're there for all to see. I'm all for a good debate, but don't make things up to try to bolster your case, it renders the process pointless.
Dandy Mountfarto
New Member
Of Adams 24 matches, he played in 16, and was injured for two months, so yes? Of those games he played more than 45 minutes in the first 12, and then was used as sub after the injury.
I was comparing him to Coutinho and Ozil in terms of the amount of defensive work they do, which is a fair comparison as the stats show he does marginally less than Coutinho and considerably more than Ozil.
Of course I'm not suggesting he's one of the best playmakers in Europe but luckily enough he's up against Championship defenders and not Premiership ones. Lets see some of your stats then, seems like I'm the only one actually looking things up.
For reference, minutes per assist for the top ten assisters:
Wes Hoolahan 171
Matt Ritchie: 214
Lasse Vigen Christensen 239
Hugo Rodallega 247
Alan Judge: 266
Adam Reach 309
David Cotterill 342
Ross McCormack 345
Michail Antonio 354
Callum Wilson 401
Interestingly Hooper, who doesn't make the top ten in terms of absolute numbers, beats everyone but Wes on that list in terms of minutes per.
Dandy Mountfarto
New Member
Also he played 33 times in the Prem for Lambert, starting 25 times.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Pluck all the stats you want. I stand by my opinion that he isn't good enough to be first name on the teamsheet every week, and that I have seen him have as many utterly anonymous games, as brilliant ones.
Nobody is denying he has been a great player for us, and on his day, can still produce.
But utterly undroppable? Nah.
Nobody is denying he has been a great player for us, and on his day, can still produce.
But utterly undroppable? Nah.
Beauseant
Well-Known Member
Don't know where you got that stat from but it's totally incorrect. In our first Premier League season under Lambert Wes made 15 starts and 7 substitute appearances.
In Hughton's first season he made 28 starts and 5 sub appearances which rather blows your anti Hughton tirade out of the water.
In Hughton's first season he made 28 starts and 5 sub appearances which rather blows your anti Hughton tirade out of the water.
Dandy Mountfarto
New Member
From here and corroborated on whoscored.
I guess then if Hughton picked him loads too then no manager regularly dropped him then, funny that.
eatonparkboy
New Member
Obviously I didn't see Saturday's game, just Canaryworld's, totally unbiased, commentary. But reading comments and mixing them with my own thoughts, I'm not sure about changing it.
If Bassong is out, then I might agree as, in essence we will be back to our shaky defence again. But looking at Charlton at the moment, 12 without a win and a recent home record that has seen draws with Cardiff, Rotherham and Blackpool and a loss to Brighton, then they look there for the taking.
They may be physical but the way we seem to be playing a pressing game at the moment with an injection of consistent power and pace when moving the ball, that may nullify the physical advantage they might have.
So I would be happy to start with Wes again, Bassong fitness accepted and I take note of all the sensible points made on the, IMO, unfortunate post about him being a legend. We have three subs and if it appears Wes is a passenger, which I agree he tends to be too many times, then Andreu or even Tettey can come on.
The Great Mass Debater
New Member
I think you're being a bit naughty there, you know Wes was being compared to that type of player rather than calibre
The Great Mass Debater
New Member
We have a funny way of helping teams get over their bad runs. No win in 12? Oh dear, that worries me!
hogesar
Well-Known Member
Completely with Dandy on this.
He has missed out at times when managers have been trying to solidify the team but in nearly all occasions he gets himself back into the team, even under Hughton.
In this league, particularly, he's a fantastic asset and whilst he's not the first name on the team-sheet, I would certainly start him more times than not. Especially with the high-pressing game we're trying to deploy, his work-rate is fantastic when it comes to pressing high up the pitch.
He has missed out at times when managers have been trying to solidify the team but in nearly all occasions he gets himself back into the team, even under Hughton.
In this league, particularly, he's a fantastic asset and whilst he's not the first name on the team-sheet, I would certainly start him more times than not. Especially with the high-pressing game we're trying to deploy, his work-rate is fantastic when it comes to pressing high up the pitch.
Din
Well-Known Member
Whilst Wes isn't the player he was a few seasons ago during the Lambert years, he is undoubtedly still an integral part of this team. There's very few players who on their day can be as effective as he is, an example of this is Saturday's game, and certain games earlier on this season. However, as others have previously mentioned, when he's not on his game he can be a complete liability, and can do much more harm to the team than good. He's not someone for me who should be starting every week, particularly as he's getting on a bit now, but at the same time he's still a great asset for this league.
I agree with the points that Beauseant and Morty are making to a certain extent, what I would disagree with though is the fact that Wes isn't a legend. In my mind he certainly is and his contribution to the team wasn't really too far off of Holt's during the consecutive promotions.
I agree with the points that Beauseant and Morty are making to a certain extent, what I would disagree with though is the fact that Wes isn't a legend. In my mind he certainly is and his contribution to the team wasn't really too far off of Holt's during the consecutive promotions.
Monty13
Active Member
Definitely a legend for me, one of the handful over the last 20 years actually deserving of the title imo, I'm not qualified to comment on those who came before that.
As for Wes, I'd be genuinely interested to see the points average with him starting v without him for the last 4 seasons. I don't know what the answer is but if I had to guess I bet with Wes would be ahead.
I also feel while every player has their off day Wes get's an unfair amount of criticism for his (not as much as poor old Whittaker). It's been said many times before but if he was consistently at his best in every game, he wouldn't be playing his football here.
The manager also has to share some of the blame for Wes getting nullified by oppositions tactics or even the conditions on some occasions. I remember last year when Wes played brilliantly against Man U and kept his place against Crystal Palace thinking, why would you play Wes in the wet against a physical team? Surprise, surprise he was poor, and yet I consider that the managers fault for picking him. Before anyone jumps on it I'm not saying that whenever Wes plays badly it's the managers fault, I've said above I agree he can be inconsistent, but there is also a time and a place when he's just not going to be the right player for the game and good managers will know that.
As for Wes, I'd be genuinely interested to see the points average with him starting v without him for the last 4 seasons. I don't know what the answer is but if I had to guess I bet with Wes would be ahead.
I also feel while every player has their off day Wes get's an unfair amount of criticism for his (not as much as poor old Whittaker). It's been said many times before but if he was consistently at his best in every game, he wouldn't be playing his football here.
The manager also has to share some of the blame for Wes getting nullified by oppositions tactics or even the conditions on some occasions. I remember last year when Wes played brilliantly against Man U and kept his place against Crystal Palace thinking, why would you play Wes in the wet against a physical team? Surprise, surprise he was poor, and yet I consider that the managers fault for picking him. Before anyone jumps on it I'm not saying that whenever Wes plays badly it's the managers fault, I've said above I agree he can be inconsistent, but there is also a time and a place when he's just not going to be the right player for the game and good managers will know that.
Last edited by a moderator:
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Not disagreeing with a lot in the last two posts.
However I do disagree with people who say he should start every game. Thats just plain silly.
However I do disagree with people who say he should start every game. Thats just plain silly.
Beauseant
Well-Known Member
Me neither. He's earned his place in City history but his inconsistency is maddening and I do get frustrated by the people who can only seem to see his strengths but ignore his weaknesses. We were wonderfully creative in midfield in the first half last night without him, but Neil was right to bring him on (for a hugely disappointing Hooper) when Charlton went two up top and left midfield less congested. While he picked out a great cross for the winner he had lost the ball on all four previous occasions that he'd been in possession, yet there were people on Twitter (who I suspect weren't there and therefore had no real clue as to what was happening on the pitch) who were acting as if he'd won the game single handedly. That's what winds the rest of us up.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Well summed up. My twitter feed was full of people saying "SEE, SEE, THATS THE GENIUS OF WES"
Its like he has them under some kind of spell.
Weird.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
I also think this, but believe that Hoolahan will be remembered as a club legend. He is still writing the story too, hopefully a third promotion and second spell in the Premier League? It will be 9 years of service across three divisions by the time his contract elapses, hopefully three promotions too.
I hope that he doesn't get his testimonial though, because unless he gets a one year deal purely on sentiment (player-coach?),that would probably mean that we're stuck in the Championship with a poor team.