morty
Moderator
Staff member
So are Starmer, and the rest of the European leaders who want a peace deal "Putin apologists" now?
F
Fen Canary
Active Member
Everybody wants a peace deal, and the Ukrainians are well aware they’re not going to get all their land back (although they have a lot more land than if they’d never fought back in the first place). Yet many who lick Trumps arse often marvel at his supposed negotiating skills by going in high and allowing himself to be haggled down are criticising Zelensky for the exact same tactic in regards to a ceasefire.
But what does a peace deal look like? It’s a perfectly valid question to ask, and despite all Trumps bluster he hasn’t actually said anything of note on the subject. He said he’d have it sorted in a day, yet here we are and we’re still no closer to seeing one.
Talking to Russia I have no problems with, it something that has to be done. But the Ukrainians also need to know that something is in place to stop the tyrant simply starting where he left off I a few years time once he's rearmed, otherwise they may as well keep on fighting and hoping the number of Russians in body bags starts to turn the Russian public against the invasion.
Let’s not forget this is now the third time he's attacked Ukraine in the last 15 years after sending troops into Donbas and annexing Crimea, not to mention stealing a large chunk of Georgia. They’re right not to trust a word that comes out of his mouth.
They’re also finding out the hard way that Americans can’t be trusted either despite having a treaty with them, as the Vietnamese, Afghans, Kurds and numerous others have discovered over the years.
S
Scoop
Member
I really don't know what the end point looks like. Is their a satisfactory one?
One thing we do know is who started it, so I guess if Russia pulled out that would allow the ROW to tell Ukraine to let it lie and start rebuilding. Or is that too idealistic?
Fen's right though, you can't trust Russia to not try it again so something has to change to achieve a lasting resolution.
America as the world's peacekeeping overlords doesn't seem to be the answer though, they keep falling at that role and arguably leaving the situation worse.
*USA: pumps chest out, underpants on the outside... "Here we come to save the day". Fails. Then lives in denial and makes movies with contrary endings*
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Its fine, Starmer's coalition of the willing are here to save the day.
British mums of lads who joined the army, your lads are off to the Russian front!
British mums of lads who joined the army, your lads are off to the Russian front!
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Well nobody was even discussing one for the last three years until Trump mentioned it...
S
Scoop
Member
I'll just leave this here
Key points: "one day" "very easily"
Key points: "one day" "very easily"
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Turns out Zelensky doesn't want his help. His choice I guess. Trump will already have spoken to Putin and know where his red lines are.
Amusingly though once the European leaders formulate their plan (Which is already fucking stupid as there is no way Putin will accept a peacekeeping force on his border as part of a withdrawal agreement) they are going to run it by Trump, to check he is okay with it.
F
Fen Canary
Active Member
Trump has changed the narrative, and good on him for doing so. But he’s only able to do that because of the actions taken in the last 3 years which has meant Ukraine has largely managed to hold vast swathes of it’s territory and turn the conflict into a stalemate, albeit one in Russia’s favour.
But spouting on about peace is the easy part. As of yet he hasn’t proposed a single solution to actually end the fighting in terms both sides can tolerate. He’s had months since winning the election to formulate a plan (which according to him would take a day) and yet the world has seen nothing from him
morty
Moderator
Staff member
He will already have been on the phone to Putin. And as for having done nothing, it looked very much like Zelensky decided he didn't want his help the other day. As for his plan, having US citizens there as part of mineral extraction would provide a kind of non combatant human shield. Putin would not attack American assets.
In another plot twist, Zelensky has just decided he now wants to sign the minerals deal...
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gerryinromania
Well-Known Member
Thy are russian Morty, attacking the Ucraina grain storage and small harbour, across the opposite river bank from Romania
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Sounds like things are getting a bit lively in your country Gerry! Leaving the EU maybe?
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gerryinromania
Well-Known Member
Strange place at the moment Morty. Presidential 2nd round elections last year, annulled because of Russian involvement involving tik tok, all sorts of other strange creatures setting up parties and creating mayhem. Don't think they are in for leaving E.U. though,as U.E. pretty helpful in keeping things on the straight and narrow, but they don't trust Trump or NATO.
Just for interest, if we suddenly get attacked by drones or by planes, our constitution does not allow us to shoot them down, only follow. We must first get permission from NATO/Trump....Hello, this is Romania here, we are getting attacked by air, can we please shoot some of them down... Our F16s seem a bit pointless.. Ok on land and sea attacks, we are allowed to defend ourelves, well maybe, depends on the political shenanigans.
Just for interest, if we suddenly get attacked by drones or by planes, our constitution does not allow us to shoot them down, only follow. We must first get permission from NATO/Trump....Hello, this is Romania here, we are getting attacked by air, can we please shoot some of them down... Our F16s seem a bit pointless.. Ok on land and sea attacks, we are allowed to defend ourelves, well maybe, depends on the political shenanigans.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Shoot them down, its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission
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gerryinromania
Well-Known Member
I well remember the Monster Raving Loony party in UK. Well, we have our maincore and minority parties, but now in the past year, these 3 other parties have sprung up, attracting all sorts of weirdos, by paying them money to vote for them and paying them to be a little bit obnoxious. They make the Loony party seem very stable and attractive
morty
Moderator
Staff member
I think that foreign interference in elections is a huge thing now in trying to shape the political landscape. There are rumours a plenty, Russia funds LGBT and green groups in Europe to try and undermine western society, the green groups especially to basically shoot ourselves in the foot by thinking we can rely less on fossil fuels, when we really can't. There were rumours of interference in the Brexit vote as Russia, and China, would quite happily see a weakened EU. America has historically played games in various countries elections too.
But overall, it has become increasingly easily to set up things online, and very quickly gain a lot of traction based on internet popularity.
I think democracy, and democratic elections are changing very quickly.
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Rock The Boat
Member
Zelensky has been lauded and applauded by every President and Prime Minister across the globe. Seen as a hero The little guy standing up bravely to the Monster in Moscow. It was the typical moral war. But Zelensky's big mistake was twofold. First he read the Maga room wrongly. Biden is gone and Maga is not all that interested in what happens in Ukraine. The US, they claim, is not the world's policeman any more but they would be quite happy tp do a deal that brings the war to an end asap and get their money back in the process. Zelensky forgot the world has changed. His second mistake was to say in public the kind of things that should have been said in private. To be fair he wasn't the only one, both sides said more than they should and Trump let it continue for longer than it was diplomatically proper. Trump even said, it would make great television, which is insightful to his character.
So in my opinion, lots of naughty boys on both sides who should have held their tongue but for us it was quite an eye opener on how these things go. Personaly, I think Ukraine can't win, they don't have the weapons, the men or the money to sustain a long term war without relying on others and even then how much can Europe afford given the dire state of most western economies. Of course, the west has more money and better equipment than the Russians, but if the Russians felt they were going to lose the war with everyone piling in, then who's to say they won't start using tactical nuclear weapons in Europe as a warning to the US of how things are going to be. And we, who have nowhere to go in the event of a nuclear attack would all cease to exist. The price of helping Ukraine might be too expensive to justify, regardless of the justness of their case.
So in my opinion, lots of naughty boys on both sides who should have held their tongue but for us it was quite an eye opener on how these things go. Personaly, I think Ukraine can't win, they don't have the weapons, the men or the money to sustain a long term war without relying on others and even then how much can Europe afford given the dire state of most western economies. Of course, the west has more money and better equipment than the Russians, but if the Russians felt they were going to lose the war with everyone piling in, then who's to say they won't start using tactical nuclear weapons in Europe as a warning to the US of how things are going to be. And we, who have nowhere to go in the event of a nuclear attack would all cease to exist. The price of helping Ukraine might be too expensive to justify, regardless of the justness of their case.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
As I said before, it would be extremely stupid to corner someone like Putin and leave him with no options. But he's not daft enough to unleash instant sunshine.
Frankly, I can't even keep up with whats going on. Starmer is making promises he can't keep, there are rumours Zelensky already signed to mineral rights over to the UK long ago, and Trump has just cancelled weapons exports to Ukraine. Oh and Zelensky is now saying he is ready to do a minerals deal.
Not really sure where this is going next, right now!
Frankly, I can't even keep up with whats going on. Starmer is making promises he can't keep, there are rumours Zelensky already signed to mineral rights over to the UK long ago, and Trump has just cancelled weapons exports to Ukraine. Oh and Zelensky is now saying he is ready to do a minerals deal.
Not really sure where this is going next, right now!
S
Sonyc
Well-Known Member
Putin is not Hitler. His actions in Ukraine are horrific enough to need no exaggeration | Simon Jenkins
Keir Starmer has said we face the greatest threat to our national security since the cold war. Such hyperbole helps nobody, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins
I said I wouldn't post if there were going to be labels attached to posters as being "leftie" - because then there is no debate possible and you are not listened to. But here is an article by a journalist I have some time for and in this piece is much I agree with (which may chime with those who are supporting a 'Trump peace'). This article then is not my own opinion entirely but is worth sharing I believe.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Sorry, but "Says Guardian columnist" really doesn't fill me with confidence. Any hint of a comparison between Putin and Hitler really is pretty badly informed, I will agree on that point. What I don't understand is that Putin can be both months away from collapse and ready to storm across Europe at the same time.
What I do wish people would read is the Budapest memorandum and the various Minsk agreements and protocols, and realise that this didn't just start 3 years ago when it became fashionable to be interested in it.
What a topsy turvy world we live in where the left are the war hawks calling for more bodybags and berating the man calling for peace. Unfortunately this has very much fallen into polarised, entrenched positions depending on whether or not you like Trump. People who see Ukraine as the good guys here really have a very short memory.
I think Starmer is delighted to use all this to distract from his terrible domestic approval ratings...
What I do wish people would read is the Budapest memorandum and the various Minsk agreements and protocols, and realise that this didn't just start 3 years ago when it became fashionable to be interested in it.
What a topsy turvy world we live in where the left are the war hawks calling for more bodybags and berating the man calling for peace. Unfortunately this has very much fallen into polarised, entrenched positions depending on whether or not you like Trump. People who see Ukraine as the good guys here really have a very short memory.
I think Starmer is delighted to use all this to distract from his terrible domestic approval ratings...
S
Sonyc
Well-Known Member
Your last paragraph is pretty much what Jenkins is saying at the end of his piece. It isn't a favourable piece on Starmer at all. The same view today by Patrick Cockburn in the iPaper. That whatever one thinks of Trump his peace proposal is the only game in town at the moment (whether you like it or not). And I mean the generalised you not personal 'you'