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Cardiff Dossier on Malky MacKay to the FA

Andy

Andy

Active Member
The DM are running more allegations

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2732188/Malky-Mackay-called-Cardiff-City-Malaysian-owner-Vincent-Tan-chink.html

"A week later came another illuminating exchange, offering what appears to be a startling observation about Mackay. At the time, Mackay was concerned that a player they were pursuing had been linked with a rival club. He relayed his feelings to Moody, who replied: ‘He told me he had an offer to go there but will never accept because the manager is a racist. Thankfully he hasn’t met you.’
 
Yellowfuture

Yellowfuture

New Member
I don't see how it reflects systematic racism unto it's self as an association if that's what you're implying?
The statement was the LMA acting in defence of one of it's members, the statement was issued on behalf of Malky wasn't it?, not in response to him.  I think people are forgetting what the LMA's role in this is, to publicly condemn a member before all the facts have come out would go against everything they stand for.

"The LMA does not condone in any way any potential breach of equal opportunities laws but would also point out that out of over 10,000 text messages and 70,000 documents produced over a long period of time it may not be a complete surprise that some inappropriate comments can sometimes be made by employees, like Malky, working under great pressure in highly charged situations. "

That looks like the LMA expressing its own view to me Skijumptoes.
 
KeiranShikari

KeiranShikari

New Member
Should have seen the signs. Here he is trying to murder a black man.

14hTKOl.jpg
 
Watling the Gnome

Watling the Gnome

New Member
Did Ron Atkinson ever work in the media again? - I think he did, so there may be a way forward for MM in football in time in some capacity, though I doubt any club would take him as he's more toxic than a Sellafield fuel rod right now.  

Mind you, Leeds United....
 
Watling the Gnome

Watling the Gnome

New Member
To be fair, the "Hall of Fame" is already getting close to barrel scraping... if we remove Mackay, do we need to promote Darel Russell or Matty Pattinson?  :wub:
 
KeiranShikari

KeiranShikari

New Member
Is anybody else more offended that Dean Ashton is in the hall of fame?
 
Boyerboy

Boyerboy

New Member
I just don't get the constant referral to private texts and the suggestion we have all said things we regret or have friends that do. I don't use racist or homophobic terms in public or private nor am I close to people that do.

It's not whether what's said is public or private but it's what's said; pure and simple. You are either racist or not. If you say things in private only then you are a careful or clever racist. You are still a racist. You can't be a public nonracist and a private racist
 
splutcho

splutcho

Moderator
I just don't get the constant referral to private texts and the suggestion we have all said things we regret or have friends that do. I don't use racist or homophobic terms in public or private nor am I close to people that do.

It's not whether what's said is public or private but it's what's said; pure and simple. You are either racist or not. If you say things in private only then you are a careful or clever racist. You are still a racist. You can't be a public nonracist and a private racist

Spot on. 

The amount of people I've had say to me "well everyone does it in private"

Err no.
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
Harry Redknapp spoke up in support of Malky today...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ao0vjGfzuE

He speaks a bit of sense on the scale of his alleged offence, but would have thought he was the last person you'd need a character reference from whilst lawyers are investigating you for alleged financial irregularities  :ph34r:
 
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lyb

lyb

Active Member
I just don't get the constant referral to private texts and the suggestion we have all said things we regret or have friends that do. I don't use racist or homophobic terms in public or private nor am I close to people that do.

It's not whether what's said is public or private but it's what's said; pure and simple. You are either racist or not. If you say things in private only then you are a careful or clever racist. You are still a racist. You can't be a public nonracist and a private racist
Well then, on that logic Malky should go to prison with a life sentence. Racists that have murdered have gone to prison for life and given that he's also now widely considered a racist then he should also be sentenced the same. And if you think I'm being silly, then consider that humanity has practised this sort of logic many times in the past. Replace 'racist' with 'heretic' and you've got the Spanish inquisition. Reverse the poles of what's considered good and bad, then replace 'racist' with 'Sunni Muslim' and you've got Islamic State.

Very dangerous when people start judging other people in such an absolute fashion because they deem themselves morally superior.
 
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Watling the Gnome

Watling the Gnome

New Member
The difference between public and private is fundamental and there has to be a distinction between the two in order for society to function.  Unless you want everyone who has ever had sex to go to jail for gross indecency, as just one example.
 
Keckers

Keckers

New Member
The hall of fame is only dynamic in the sense that new players come along and contribute more to the club's success on the pitch. What they contributed to the club, is fixed in history and if the club recognised it by putting it in the hall of fame then it should stand whatever happens afterwards. Put a mark against their name on there that marks them as someone who has later shamed themselves to the embarrassment of the club, but retrospectively taking away recognition of something that has been done and won't change actually demeans the hall of fame entirely by making it something subject to the politics of the day. The club would be cheapening itself by pandering to current affairs in this way.
I get your point about changing due to the politics of the day, but would argue that this argument doesn't apply here due to the very short time between him being a player and now. It's not as if the political environment has changed hugely in those 10 or so years so the politics of the day argument doesn't work.

As for reflecting badly on the club, I would say that it reflects badly on the club if we don't at least consider the implications of having this player in our hall of fame. Young BME players may be put off joining a club who have a high profile and known racist as one of their icons. How does this show support of current BME players and the ongoing attempts to quash racism in football? We have a zero tolerance attitude to fans so the same should apply here. It is not acceptable.

Removing him from the hall of game does not diminish his contribution to the club. The history if the club will always contain the era of MM. How we choose to honour the man is something we can change.
 
lyb

lyb

Active Member
At rock bottom, I just think it's all very dictatorial to denounce somebody in such an extreme fashion for writing a few stupid words in private. I'll argue with people screaming out about the 'evil Zionists' until I'm blue in the face, and I'll do the same to anyone trying to paint all Muslims as wicked and evil. I've known enough people of both persuasions to know it's false and you can extend that attitude. But I won't write off my Turkish friend for painting Israelis as evil monsters any more than I'll write off my Israeli friend for believing that Israel doesn't have any other choice than to retaliate against Hamas in the knowledge that civilian casualties are unavoidable. 

Going a bit further and referencing the outrage at the use of the word 'banter' in the LMA's statement to the two texts. I think this is worthy of some more thought. Fans of football clubs regularly hurl abuse at each other because of what football team they support. We hurl abuse at Ipswich (or Ipsh1t as it's more regularly known in glorious Norfolk) even though we know they feel strongly about it and they hurl abuse back and it's all just in 'the spirit of banter'. Yet, at the end of the day a police presence is regularly required at football games to stop things getting violent because fights will break out between football fans. Football fans have actually been murdered after a game, managers of football clubs have received bombs in the post, yet it's accepted that people can be abusive of somebody else's football club as 'just banter' in spite of the uglier side of the tribalism that it is a part. All of those actions are utterly irrational for the sake of a game of football, yet we're all still prepared to accept that things that are said that are cruel and unjustified can actually be meant in good spirits, and even if they're not actually meant in good spirits they will still  be tolerated. Ultimately, a distinction is made between the use of abusive words and violent behaviour even though the tribal instincts at work here are no different at all to the ones that drive racist attitudes. 

The parallels with racism are obvious. Why don't we like racism? Because it's used to bully, humiliate and even justify killing of people for the sake of the colour of their skin, or the slant of their eyes, or their religious beliefs. And yet, for some reason, despite the parallels between the phenomena, it's considered reasonable to condemn people utterly for anything that so much as hints towards being racist as severely as if they'd stood up and said 'I think all Jews/Muslims/Scots/English/<insert any other tribe, race or faith you want here> people deserve to die'.

It's considered utterly unacceptable to dig at someone else's religion or origins whether it's meant to be good-humoured or not, because somebody 'could find it offensive', even if the recipient doesn't. Case in point, Prince Charles a few years back, who's a regular advocate of tolerance, was found to regularly call a friend of his of Pakistani origin 'Sooty', which the friend took in good humour and went as far to actively defend Prince Charles in the press when it came out. Yet it didn't stop the lobby groups and many others condemning Prince Charles for it, because they didn't deem it acceptable speech.

And this is the problem we have in our society today. There are differences where political doctrine dictates that we must behave in a way that denies there are any differences, and anything that is said that refers to it and somebody finds offensive is unacceptable. And people are out there trawling for anything they can seize on to deem offensive. That is not a healthy society. A healthy society would be one where somebody can tease somebody like that and the recipient tease back, or say 'that's not funny' and the person doing the teasing apologise. Because ultimately, none of us are machines, we're human beings, driven by emotion and irrational leaps as much as we are reason and to attempt to confine that in a strait-jacket of a tabboo subject is repressive and as damaging than what it attempts to resolve.

That all said though, if Malky did indeed regularly refer to one of his players in front of the others as the 'little Egyptian' then that's wrong, even if it was meant in good spirits, because he was in a position of authority over the recipient was in a position where he would worry at the consequences of any retort and he needs to have a good think about that.
 
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Keckers

Keckers

New Member
That's a very long response.

1. I didn't say that being offended is the same as something being racially motivated. People have the right to be offended, and others have the right to offend as long as the offence caused is not abusive or prejudicial.

2. There is a clear distinction between racial motivation and football abuse. People from Ipswich are not of a different race, they just support a different team. Should the abuse be acceptable? I'm not sure. Being on the receiving end is not pleasant. However, there is a clear distinction between the two.

3. If friendships are characterised by non-PC banter, that is between those friends. Malky was not friends with these people and the comments were not all in private, so that aspect of your argument is redundant.

4. A healthy society would surely be one blind to these differences and focus purely on the individual. Are they a good person? Are any negative comments about them justified?

5. Teasing, in your response, is picking on difference. Just giving it a cute name doesn't change this.

6. It is not repressive to ask people to think before they speak. It does not stifle free speech to expect people to frame their arguments without using abusive language (this does not exclude the use of strong language, just abusive language). The world would be a nicer place if people took the time to think before they spoke.

7. If he were to demonstrate he has rehabilitated himself then he should be lauded for that. A healthy society is one that recognises change is possible and celebrates positive change.

8. Playing on national stereotypes is something that still happens in positive and entertaining ways (visit the Comedy Store for the Saturday late show one week and you'll see what I mean),so there is still a place for that. Context is vital, as is the choice to opt in, and the forum within which the comments take place. This is the crucial element here.

9. This post is far too long and I really have had enough of discussion these allegations. I still have affection for Malky the player and his part in our history. I do not believe Malky the man as presented recently is someone the club should celebrate as having an association with the club. That is my opinion. For those of you out there who want to dismiss this and the language as banter / harmless / not that big a deal, I suggest you read "From Murmur to Murder"
 
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lyb

lyb

Active Member
That's a very long response.

1. I didn't say that being offended is the same as something being racially motivated. People have the right to be offended, and others have the right to offend as long as the offence caused is not abusive or prejudicial.

2. There is a clear distinction between racial motivation and football abuse. People from Ipswich are not of a different race, they just support a different team. Should the abuse be acceptable? I'm not sure. Being on the receiving end is not pleasant. However, there is a clear distinction between the two.

There are valid and strong parallels that I illustrated. Racism can be towards physical appearance or can be towards cultural choices such as religion. Your genetic make-up isn't a choice, but your religion is a choice, and hating everyone of a religion is also accepted as racist even if it may be one you never even contemplated changing, which is actually not a million miles away from supporting a football club. At another level, I support England because I'm English as most Germans support Germany because they're German and so on and violence between fans of international teams also happens, although thankfully less so these days. Can't that be considered inherently racist?

3. If friendships are characterised by non-PC banter, that is between those friends. Malky was not friends with these people and the comments were not all in private, so that aspect of your argument is redundant.

Not redundant. The comments that Cardiff released were all made privately. I made the distinction between the private comments and the alleged 'little Egyptian' business at Cardiff, which was not to a friend, but to a subordinate.

4. A healthy society would surely be one blind to these differences and focus purely on the individual. Are they a good person? Are any negative comments about them justified?

Blindness to the differences is not an achievable goal, short of pulling everybody's eyes out. The human brain is hard-wired to focus on differences. That's how we tell each other apart. Similarly, going back to the texts, if you don't know many Chinese people and you have a difficult relationship with one of the few that you do know, venting in relation to the most obvious difference is, while irrational, understandable and not necessarily an indication of a bitter hatred of Chinese people, nor that they won't view other Chinese people as individuals when they meet them. 

5. Teasing, in your response, is picking on difference. Just giving it a cute name doesn't change this.

Teasing is making fun of people in a playful way. I didn't use the word in relation to MacKay's texts or the 'little Egyptian' business. It was part of the wider debate concerning anti-racism when referring to Prince Charles and his friend. 

6. It is not repressive to ask people to think before they speak. It does not stifle free speech to expect people to frame their arguments without using abusive language (this does not exclude the use of strong language, just abusive language). The world would be a nicer place if people took the time to think before they spoke.

It's reasonable to want people to think before they speak.  It is repressive to condemn people excessively for not thinking before they speak, which everybody is guilty of at some stage, particularly if what's objectionable about the words isn't backed up by any clear indication that those words necessarily stem from real hatred.

7. If he were to demonstrate he has rehabilitated himself then he should be lauded for that. A healthy society is one that recognises change is possible and celebrates positive change.

Agreed.

8. Playing on national stereotypes is something that still happens in positive and entertaining ways (visit the Comedy Store for the Saturday late show one week and you'll see what I mean),so there is still a place for that. Context is vital, as is the choice to opt in, and the forum within which the comments take place. This is the crucial element here.

Agreed to an extent, yet this is also a muddy area as well. Omid Djalili is one of my favourite comedians and a part of his act is taking the mickey out of Iranian culture. I think that's fine personally. I don't understand why anybody who's not Iranian shouldn't be allowed to do it in good spirits though. Saying you can make a dig at a culture because you're of that culture, but not if you're of another culture strikes me as a form of racism in itself .

9. This post is far too long and I really have had enough of discussion these allegations. I still have affection for Malky the player and his part in our history. I do not believe Malky the man as presented recently is someone the club should celebrate as having an association with the club. That is my opinion. For those of you out there who want to dismiss this and the language as banter / harmless / not that big a deal, I suggest you read "From Murmur to Murder"

Totally agree with the sentiment here. And apologies for the long post. Bit of a bugbear of mine.
 
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Keckers

Keckers

New Member
To be fair, this is a bugbear of mine too. I have a very strong opinion about the unacceptability of this. We should just agree to disagree on some of the finer points. At the end of the day, I think we both want a better world without discrimination and people feeling discriminated against, but still valuing free speech.
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
"At another level, I support England because I'm English as most Germans support Germany because they're German and so on and violence between fans of international teams also happens, although thankfully less so these days. Can't that be considered inherently racist?"

I don't want to get involved in something too deep, long winded, or requiring much thought... but I'd have thought that supporting your national football team was nothing other than patriotism. I don't think there is anything wrong with patriotism, in fact we don't have enough of a national identity these days. There is a problem with extreme patriotism, which is literally the definition of 'nationalism'.

There is a huge difference between supporting your national football team, and believing that anybody non-white or who subscribe to certain religions shouldn't be allowed to play for England or consider themselves English - for example. It is unfortunate that the English flag is associated with a small group of nationalists & racists these days (the English Defence League). 

As for violence between nationalities. There are people who just get a buzz out of getting drunk and having a fight, which has become difficult in domestic football. Those people were attracted to international games and European competition because there was a long period where the policing hadn't caught up. Now that police intelligence is being shared and they have a big database (and confiscate passports for tournaments etc) they can't do that now either, so a load of them joined the EDL instead and called themselves a protest group to legitimise loutish behaviour (I'm not saying that all people who used to like a scrap at the football would join the EDL, but some of them did). 

When there is nobody to fight they fight amongst themselves, as seen at Wembley between Millwall fans. If England fans went to the European Championships and couldn't find anybody game for a riot, they would fight each other and the police. Its just their mentality - they want to fight, and aren't particular fussed about who they fight with. 
 
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