Norwich City vs Middlesbrough (Home) Tuesday 24th October.

[morty]

Well the bad news is that I'm home and will be able to go to this! I have quite a few Boro supporting friends so would really like us to win here, and apart from anything else I would like to see a reaction after Saturday's capitulation!

From the presser :-

• Angus Gunn set for scan on his injured left leg later on Monday afternoon. Definitely ruled out of Boro visit. Departed in the first half of the 3-2 weekend defeat to Leeds with what Wagner labelled immediately after the game a 'muscular' leg problem.
• No plans to recall young keeper Jon McCracken from emergency loan at Accrington at this stage of the week.
• Wagner reported no fresh fitness issues from those on duty at the weekend.
• Marcelino Nunez fit and available. Missed out at the weekend after returning from international duty towards the end of last week. Nunez has not featured for his club since before the September international break due to an ankle injury playing for Chile
• Grant Hanley (Achilles) and Jacob Sorensen (pelvis) are both back in team training. Hanley could be in line for a development run out at Stoke next week
• Ashley Barnes (knee) has an outside chance of returning before the November international break
• Josh Sargent (ankle) underwent surgery on Sept 4. Christmas, early Jan timescale

 

[Gunvald Larsson]

I am unable to attend this game. 'Boro are in great form so maybe another thrashing is on the cards. Ho hum.

 

[Number 9]

Well the bad news is that I'm home and will be able to go to this! I have quite a few Boro supporting friends so would really like us to win here, and apart from anything else I would like to see a reaction after Saturday's capitulation!

From the presser :-

• Angus Gunn set for scan on his injured left leg later on Monday afternoon. Definitely ruled out of Boro visit. Departed in the first half of the 3-2 weekend defeat to Leeds with what Wagner labelled immediately after the game a 'muscular' leg problem.
• No plans to recall young keeper Jon McCracken from emergency loan at Accrington at this stage of the week.
• Wagner reported no fresh fitness issues from those on duty at the weekend.
• Marcelino Nunez fit and available. Missed out at the weekend after returning from international duty towards the end of last week. Nunez has not featured for his club since before the September international break due to an ankle injury playing for Chile
• Grant Hanley (Achilles) and Jacob Sorensen (pelvis) are both back in team training. Hanley could be in line for a development run out at Stoke next week
• Ashley Barnes (knee) has an outside chance of returning before the November international break
• Josh Sargent (ankle) underwent surgery on Sept 4. Christmas, early Jan timescale

I don't suppose he mentioned how incredibly unlucky we've been shortly after his substitutions each game?

 

[morty]

I don't suppose he mentioned how incredibly unlucky we've been shortly after his substitutions each game?

It all just falls in with what we were saying in another thread re the quality of the squad overall. For instance, the likes of Hernandez and Placheta really shouldn't be first choice, they are impact subs at best. We definitely lack anyone on the bench that can make an impact.

 

[Number 9]

It all just falls in with what we were saying in another thread re the quality of the squad overall. For instance, the likes of Hernandez and Placheta really shouldn't be first choice, they are impact subs at best. We definitely lack anyone on the bench that can make an impact.

The Plan worked initially with Ashley & Josh helping out the midfield.
It's just not working without those two players, so why not change the system to suit the players we have?

 

[morty]

The Plan worked initially with Ashley & Josh helping out the midfield.
It's just not working without those two players, so why not change the system to suit the players we have?

I think, losing Nunez and Sorenson has also limited options for changing the system. I have been away for 6 weeks, so can't comment on what we have changed to play without Barnes and Josh, I assume though that we must have changed things somehow?

 

[Number 9]

I think, losing Nunez and Sorenson has also limited options for changing the system. I have been away for 6 weeks, so can't comment on what we have changed to play without Barnes and Josh, I assume though that we must have changed things somehow?

It's been the same only Barnes & Sarge aren't there to drop into midfield and defend from the front.
It's resulted in Sara & McLean being the defensive midfielders, which works as well as you'd imagine it would.
Forshaw & Gibbs sometimes are brought on after the game has gone & often played out of position ie Gibbs as a second striker.
Wagner seems to have set in his mind that the subs will be replacing the wingers like for like regardless.

 

[morty]

Jesus Christ. I was in the pub by the time the full time whistle went.

 

[ManofNorfolk1805]

This is what you get when the manager's main qualification for the job is being a mate of Stuart Webber's. It's like watching football from the coaching manual of Division 2 of the Bundesliga, probably mid-table. No passion, no drive, no urgency, no penetration but an oversupply of incompetence. They are back in the Norwich comfort zone - good salary, nice area, nice house, decent schools and no pressure for results. What it actually needs is the fear factor and there is none. The Americans' involvement so far has been a huge success - their data manipulation has really helped - NOT.

 

[Fenway Frank]

Were desperately in need of a striker, neither Idah or Hwang look like scoring

 

[morty]

Were desperately in need of a striker, neither Idah or Hwang look like scoring

Looking at some stats from Connor Southwell on Twitter and we are gifting sides an alarming amount of chances, so it isn't just scoring goals that is the issue here.

I think the manager is on very shaky ground...

 

[Number 9]

Looking at some stats from Connor Southwell on Twitter and we are gifting sides an alarming amount of chances, so it isn't just scoring goals that is the issue here.

I think the manager is on very shaky ground...

Before the season started there was a conversation regarding not having a CDM.
You play McLean & Sara as midfield, you get what you deserve.

 

[Gunvald Larsson]

While taking into account the problems with injuries et al I think that Wagner has to take the majority of the blame for the current debacle. Poor team selections, incredibly bad substitutions, no Plan B and a reluctance to use players who have been signed and are available and could do a decent job of helping us defend a lead. Step forward Danny Batth and Adam Forshaw. Apart from Rowe and Sara we don't have a real goal threat. Hwang doesn't look fit and although Idah is definitely improving he isn't ready yet to be our main striker. The football at the moment is like the fag end of Farke's reign when he was floundering to get something out of average players. The performances are better than most of those under Smith but other teams have sussed us out and we need a Plan B quickly or it's a relegation battle for us to look forward to.

 

[morty]

I agree teams have sussed us out, we literally telegraphed the pass out, first half especially, that we would play out through Giannoulis. I think I only saw once when Kenny was screaming for the ball, and actually played it centrally through midfield. We played out a bit through the other side in the second half, but it all felt very predictable and slow, and easy to match up.

The movement up front and lack of players making runs meant that when we got to midfield, it all just stopped.

 

[ManofNorfolk1805]

Let's place the blame where the blame lies on the field. For someone who was in England squads and a big money transfer to Burnley, Ben Miller is a disaster area. Just standing and putting your foot on the ball on the edge of your own box is inviting trouble. It is slow and predictable. When our best player , putting in the most effort, is a free transfer right back, you are in real trouble. Following the fashion for eight passes to cross the halfway line is going to leave any team vulnerable to having any mistake made 30 yards from your own goal punished. We gave Jordan Hugill the push when now he would do better job than either Idah or Hwang.

 

[Gunvald Larsson]

Let's place the blame where the blame lies on the field. For someone who was in England squads and a big money transfer to Burnley, Ben Miller is a disaster area. Just standing and putting your foot on the ball on the edge of your own box is inviting trouble. It is slow and predictable. When our best player , putting in the most effort, is a free transfer right back, you are in real trouble. Following the fashion for eight passes to cross the halfway line is going to leave any team vulnerable to having any mistake made 30 yards from your own goal punished. We gave Jordan Hugill the push when now he would do better job than either Idah or Hwang.

Ben Miller was better when he was paired with Alexander Armstrong. It's easy to just blame the players but they are obviously operating as per the coach's instructions. It was the same under Smith. Too much piddling about with slow, ponderous passing when a bit of pace would be much better. Just look at how Leicester and (unfortunately) Ipswich knock it about. They have got players who can make those tactics work. We haven't.

 

[ManofNorfolk1805]

Gunvald - I agree wholeheartedly. What you are describing is uncritical worship of possession stats (so that's where the Americans got involved?) regardless of whether they represent the ball being knocked around in your own penalty area or in your attacking third. In relation to the manager's instructions, there are enough senior players there (plus about 20,000 season ticket holders) to tell him it is not working, whatever it is supposed to be. Therein lies the classic definition of madness "Continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result."

 

[Gunvald Larsson]

Perhaps they do tell him, but I have heard that Wagner is very stubborn in a 'my way or the highway' kind of way. Things are not great when Hwang (who has been pretty dire most of the time) starts berating his team mates for dodgy defending and they then start arguing amongst themselves (as happened against Leeds). Poor playing performances and poor coaching decisions combined will eventually see us in the bottom half .... oh, we're already there.

 

[Number 9]

Perhaps they do tell him, but I have heard that Wagner is very stubborn in a 'my way or the highway' kind of way. Things are not great when Hwang (who has been pretty dire most of the time) starts berating his team mates for dodgy defending and they then start arguing amongst themselves (as happened against Leeds). Poor playing performances and poor coaching decisions combined will eventually see us in the bottom half .... oh, we're already there.

It's similar to the situation we had with Farke, they put all their eggs in one basket and hang so much on 'their system of play' that if the tactics get changed it looks like a huge climbdown on the part of the manager.
ie, we don't need a Plan B, we need to be better at Plan A is what Farke used to say, Wagner hasn't used those words but says similar.
Strangely enough, Farke found out to our cost that you need a good CDM & decent cover for him.

 

[morty]

We can't afford a plan B